Dziwna jazda

Coś mnie trafiło. Ten "sport" jest okropny. Myślałam, że mnie trafi.

WTF ??!! co to jest??

skąd mam wiedzieć. okropne

Taka kultura, nic nie poradzisz. Widziałam już, chyba nawet tu, na ZM filmik na ten temat. To specjalne pokazy dla TSH, gdzie demonstrują swoje specyficzne chody, a przemysł... no cóż. Specjalne obciążane podkowy, trening, konie chodzą w specjalnych konstrukcjach powodujących obniżanie i podstawianie zadu, czy też kategoryczne karanie za próby tarzania(!). Na porządku dziennym jest, że koń dostaje kijem przez łeb, czanki przy kiełźnie aż do gardła, cóż. Dawniej przeprowadzano nawet operacje (podcięcie mięśnia grzbietowo-ogonowego, nie wiem jak się to nazywa), które powodowało dumne, efektowne noszenie ogona, ale mam wrażenie, że zostało to zakazane.

W Polsce takie coś na szczęście się nie przyjęło, w zeszłym roku byłam na wykładzie u pana Mickunasa, poruszany był też ten temat. Ale Amerykanie, cóż... miłośnicy, czy też trenerzy, a nawet zwykli widzowie pytanie o zdanie odpowiadali jedno- 'tradition'. I wybicie im z głowy tej chorej tradycji to walka z wiatrakami... podobno.

CO za de***e, d***, kretyni....
Biją je za to, że nie chcą wstać, targają je
PO CO się nimi zajmują?
Traktują je prądem
CO za ..... ****y

Mina, nie irytuj się, szkoda nerwów, a nic tym nie wskórasz, taka prawda niestety.

a to nie jest prawnie zakazane - mechaniczne wyrabianie takiego kroku??

Clue napisał:

W Polsce takie coś na szczęście się nie przyjęło, w zeszłym roku byłam na wykładzie u pana Mickunasa, poruszany był też ten temat. Ale Amerykanie, cóż... miłośnicy, czy też trenerzy, a nawet zwykli widzowie pytanie o zdanie odpowiadali jedno- 'tradition'. I wybicie im z głowy tej chorej tradycji to walka z wiatrakami... podobno.

Taka sama tradycja, jak hiszpańska corrida... cały świat ma to za bestialstwo, a oni robią z torreadorów/matadorów/pikadorów wielkie, szanowane gwiazdy.

Aż się nóż w kieszeni otwiera.

Bije się konie za byle co, to tak jak rzeź!

mina stirit1 napisał:

0:17 i nie wytrzymałam... Okropieństwo!

Cytat :

History of the "Big Lick"
During the late 1940s and early 1950s, when Walking Horses enjoyed a surge of widespread popularity with the general public, exaggerated front leg action, especially at the running walk, drew spectators to horse shows and helped increase the popularity of the breed. This action was also rewarded by judges. This began the rage for "big lick" movement. While "lite shod" horses with naturally good movement could comfortably perform this crowd-pleasing gait at the time, it took both natural ability and considerable time to properly train and condition the horse.
Some individuals, wishing to produce similar movement in less-talented horses or in less time, borrowed practices used by other breeds to enhance movement. This included action devices such as weighted shoes, "stacks" (stacked pads), and the use of weighted chains around the pasterns, all of which, within certain limits, were allowed.
As these methods produced horses that won in the show ring, and as ever-higher and more dramatic action was rewarded by the judges, some trainers turned to less savory methods to produce high action in a hurry. These methods including excessively heavy weighted chains, use of tacks deliberately placed under the shoe into the "white line," or quick, of the hoof, trimming the sole of the hoof to the point that it bleeds or is bruised, increasing the weight of the stacked pads by driving in a large number of concealed nails and the controversial practice of "soring," which is the application of a caustic chemical agent to the pastern of the front legs to cause pain when the chains bang against the pastern with every step. The outcome of these practices is so much pain in the horse's front hooves that the horse snatches its feet off the ground as fast as possible in an attempt to alleviate the pain. Correspondingly, the horse steps under itself as far as possible with its hind legs in order to relieve the forelegs of weight. This results in the "squatting" body outline (hindquarters extremely lowered, forelegs flung very high) typical of the "big lick" horse. Such abuses are illegal under the Horse Protection Act, but are still practised.

Action devices
Two common action devices are permitted on the show grounds; they are also used for training and show to enhance the horse's gait.
Chains: bracelet-like chains are attached around the front pasterns of the horse, and may be no more than 6 ounces in weight. They are intended to be used with a lubricant to allow them to slide easily along the pastern.
"Pads": Added under a horse's natural hoof, pads (sometimes called "stacks" or "packages") can vary in height. They are usually made of plastic, although originally were made of leather. Pads have a metal band that runs across the hoof wall to help keep them on the horse's foot. Pads may be up to 4" thick in the heel and no more than 2" in the toe. Thickness and the use of the band determine what class a horse can be shown in. Pads are an extension of a base shoe, and are easily taken off or changed without having to completely reshoe the horse.
Users of chains do not believe they cause the horse pain, stating that it creates a similar feeling as a loose bracelet would around the wrist of a person. But, some trainers and veterinarians believe that above a certain weight, they may be harmful. A well-known study four-year study conducted at Auburn University (1978-1982) examined the health effects of action devices on gaited horses through the use of thermography. Entitled "Thermography in diagnosis of inflammatory processes in horses in response to various chemical and physical factors," the study led researchers to conclude that chains "altered thermal patterns as early as day 2 of exercise with chains. These altered thermal patterns persisted as long as chains were used," with normal thermal patterns seen after 20 days of recovery. A stallion in the study developed lesions from 8-ounce chains, after wearing them in nine 15-minute exercise periods (from September 22 to October 3). The Auburn study showed that 2-, 4-, and 6-ounce chains produced no adverse effects in the horses being studied. A 6-ounce chain is the legal weight of chain allowed in NHSC horse shows.
Pads are also controversial. Some criticize the band that holds the pad on, which they believe cuts into the hoof and may wear a slot into it. But, trainers commonly loosen the band when the horse is not being exercised, which may minimize the problem. Under normal conditions, if a pad is lost, it usually only affects the pad and not the base shoe, which remains intact. Injuries are usually very limited from "throwing" a set of pads. It is dangerous if a horse wearing pads pulls off a shoe, as not only will the pad will come off, but the band may tear off part of the hoof wall. Horses wearing pads should not be turned out.

Soring
Soring is an abusive and prohibited practice that is associated in part with the production of "big lick" movement in Tennessee Walking Horses. It involves using chemical agents such as mustard oil, diesel fuel, kerosene, salicylic acid, and other caustic substances on the pasterns, bulbs of the heel, or coronary bands of the horses, causing burning or blistering of the horses' legs in order to accentuate their gaits. These chemicals are harmful, usually quite toxic and sometimes carcinogenic, such that trainers must use a brush and wear gloves when applying them. The treated area is then often wrapped in plastic while the chemicals are absorbed. The chemical agents cause extreme pain, and usually lead to scarring. A distinctive scarring pattern is a tell-tale signs of soring, and therefore attempts may be made to cover the scarring with a dye, or the horse's legs may be treated with salicylic acid before the animal is stalled (as many can not stand up after the treatment) while the skin of the scars slough off. Other signs that a horse has been sored include the following:
The horse stands with its feet close together, shifting its weight to its hind legs.
Granulation tissue or scars are visible on the pasterns or coronet band.
Wavy hair growth or hair loss is visible in the pastern area.
The horse's pasterns have darker hair than the rest of the horse's coat.
The horse carries its hocks low and may twist them outward when moving.
The horse lies down for extended periods of time, and is resistant to standing up.
The horse resists handling of its hooves.
The horse has difficulty walking, and may fall.
Other methods of soring include pressure shoes, where the hoof is trimmed to the quick so that the sole is in direct contact with the pad or shoe. The horse may then be "road foundered," ridden up and down hard surfaces on the over-trimmed hooves, until they are very sore. Trainers sometimes place objects, such as metal beads, nails, or screws, under the pad causing intense pressure, although this practice has begun to decrease with the use of fluoroscopy to detect such methods. Abusive use of chains (such as using them with chemical soring agents) is also a common practices by sorers.
Measures have been taken to stop the practice, and many supporters of the Tennessee Walking Horse have banded together for years to oppose cruelty. The Horse Protection Act of 1970[3], created specifically to stop such practices and to monitor the TWH in particular, prohibits the use of soring agents. The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS), part of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), is working with the industry to enforce the law. Tennessee Walking Horse organizations send DQPs (Designated Qualified Persons) to shows to inspect the horses, and, as funding permits, APHIS sends federally-employed Veterinary Medical Officers to work with DQPs at some shows.
Soring has been prohibited at sales and shows for decades, but is still practiced.[4] It can be detected by observing the horse for lameness, assessing its stance and palpating the lower legs. Some trainers can bypass inspectors by training horses not to react to the pain that palpation may cause, often by severely punishing the horse for flinching after the sored area is palpated. The practice is sometimes called "stewarding," in reference to the horse show steward who often is the first line of rule enforcement at any horse show. Trainers may also time the use of the agents so that chemicals will not be detected when the horse is examined, but will be in effect when the rider goes into the ring. Others use topical anesthetics, which are timed to wear off before the horse goes into the show ring. Pressure shoeing is also used, eliminating use of chemicals altogether. Trainers who sore their horses will leave the show grounds when they find that the more stringent federal inspectors are present.[4]
In 2006, however, due to new techniques in both soring and detection, the USDA began a larger crackdown on soring within the industry. A new device known as a "sniffer" (also used to detect the chemical presence of bombs in airport security) can now be employed, where swabbed samples are taken from the horse and then "sniffed." At the 2006 Tennessee Walking Horse Celebration [5], the longstanding dispute between trainers and USDA inspectors came to a head. The inspectors disqualified 6 of 10 horses from showing on the night of Friday, August 25, 2006. The trainers denied soring and challenged the monitoring methods. The result was that a number of celebration championship classes were canceled, and there is still considerable controversy over the situation. After a yearlong discussion between the industry and the USDA over the issues raised at the 2006 show, the 2007 championship went off without significant controversy.
Trainers who oppose soring have formed and joined alternative breed organizations, including the National Walking Horse Association (NWHA) and Friends of Sound Horses (FOSH). All of these organizations promote the sound Tennessee Walking Horse. In addition, in 2005, the national directors of the Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders' and Exhibitors' Association (TWHBEA) voted to remove themselves from the National Horse Show Commission (NHSC) the sanctioning body closest to the soring issues. The TWHBEA formed its own sanctioning body, developed a new rule book and strict guidelines for affiliated horse shows and Horse Industry Organizations [HIO] that applied and were examined by the APHIS. The issue remains very controversial, particularly in the states of Kentucky and Tennessee.
An investigation by ABC News into the training methods of Tennessee Walking Horses revealed that large numbers of horses have been tortured and beaten in order to make them produce their signature high-stepping gait. In a video shot by the Humane Society of the United States, high profile trainer Jackie McConnel is seen beating horses, using electric cattle prods and soring their hooves with caustic chemicals. Additionally, a random inspection by the Department of Agriculture at the 2011 annual championship found that 52 out of 52 horses had a foreign substance applied to their front hooves, either to cause pain or hide it.[6] In June, 2012, the American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Veterinary Medical Association jointly issued a call to ban both action devices (chains, rollers, etc.) and "performance packages," e.g. stacks or pads.[7]

źródło": wikipedia.
Jak znajdę chwilę czasu przetłumaczę to na ludzki polski

Nevarra napisał:

Cytat :

History of the "Big Lick"
During the late 1940s and early 1950s, when Walking Horses enjoyed a surge of widespread popularity with the general public, exaggerated front leg action, especially at the running walk, drew spectators to horse shows and helped increase the popularity of the breed. This action was also rewarded by judges. This began the rage for "big lick" movement. While "lite shod" horses with naturally good movement could comfortably perform this crowd-pleasing gait at the time, it took both natural ability and considerable time to properly train and condition the horse.
Some individuals, wishing to produce similar movement in less-talented horses or in less time, borrowed practices used by other breeds to enhance movement. This included action devices such as weighted shoes, "stacks" (stacked pads), and the use of weighted chains around the pasterns, all of which, within certain limits, were allowed.
As these methods produced horses that won in the show ring, and as ever-higher and more dramatic action was rewarded by the judges, some trainers turned to less savory methods to produce high action in a hurry. These methods including excessively heavy weighted chains, use of tacks deliberately placed under the shoe into the "white line," or quick, of the hoof, trimming the sole of the hoof to the point that it bleeds or is bruised, increasing the weight of the stacked pads by driving in a large number of concealed nails and the controversial practice of "soring," which is the application of a caustic chemical agent to the pastern of the front legs to cause pain when the chains bang against the pastern with every step. The outcome of these practices is so much pain in the horse's front hooves that the horse snatches its feet off the ground as fast as possible in an attempt to alleviate the pain. Correspondingly, the horse steps under itself as far as possible with its hind legs in order to relieve the forelegs of weight. This results in the "squatting" body outline (hindquarters extremely lowered, forelegs flung very high) typical of the "big lick" horse. Such abuses are illegal under the Horse Protection Act, but are still practised.

Action devices
Two common action devices are permitted on the show grounds; they are also used for training and show to enhance the horse's gait.
Chains: bracelet-like chains are attached around the front pasterns of the horse, and may be no more than 6 ounces in weight. They are intended to be used with a lubricant to allow them to slide easily along the pastern.
"Pads": Added under a horse's natural hoof, pads (sometimes called "stacks" or "packages") can vary in height. They are usually made of plastic, although originally were made of leather. Pads have a metal band that runs across the hoof wall to help keep them on the horse's foot. Pads may be up to 4" thick in the heel and no more than 2" in the toe. Thickness and the use of the band determine what class a horse can be shown in. Pads are an extension of a base shoe, and are easily taken off or changed without having to completely reshoe the horse.
Users of chains do not believe they cause the horse pain, stating that it creates a similar feeling as a loose bracelet would around the wrist of a person. But, some trainers and veterinarians believe that above a certain weight, they may be harmful. A well-known study four-year study conducted at Auburn University (1978-1982) examined the health effects of action devices on gaited horses through the use of thermography. Entitled "Thermography in diagnosis of inflammatory processes in horses in response to various chemical and physical factors," the study led researchers to conclude that chains "altered thermal patterns as early as day 2 of exercise with chains. These altered thermal patterns persisted as long as chains were used," with normal thermal patterns seen after 20 days of recovery. A stallion in the study developed lesions from 8-ounce chains, after wearing them in nine 15-minute exercise periods (from September 22 to October 3). The Auburn study showed that 2-, 4-, and 6-ounce chains produced no adverse effects in the horses being studied. A 6-ounce chain is the legal weight of chain allowed in NHSC horse shows.
Pads are also controversial. Some criticize the band that holds the pad on, which they believe cuts into the hoof and may wear a slot into it. But, trainers commonly loosen the band when the horse is not being exercised, which may minimize the problem. Under normal conditions, if a pad is lost, it usually only affects the pad and not the base shoe, which remains intact. Injuries are usually very limited from "throwing" a set of pads. It is dangerous if a horse wearing pads pulls off a shoe, as not only will the pad will come off, but the band may tear off part of the hoof wall. Horses wearing pads should not be turned out.

Soring
Soring is an abusive and prohibited practice that is associated in part with the production of "big lick" movement in Tennessee Walking Horses. It involves using chemical agents such as mustard oil, diesel fuel, kerosene, salicylic acid, and other caustic substances on the pasterns, bulbs of the heel, or coronary bands of the horses, causing burning or blistering of the horses' legs in order to accentuate their gaits. These chemicals are harmful, usually quite toxic and sometimes carcinogenic, such that trainers must use a brush and wear gloves when applying them. The treated area is then often wrapped in plastic while the chemicals are absorbed. The chemical agents cause extreme pain, and usually lead to scarring. A distinctive scarring pattern is a tell-tale signs of soring, and therefore attempts may be made to cover the scarring with a dye, or the horse's legs may be treated with salicylic acid before the animal is stalled (as many can not stand up after the treatment) while the skin of the scars slough off. Other signs that a horse has been sored include the following:
The horse stands with its feet close together, shifting its weight to its hind legs.
Granulation tissue or scars are visible on the pasterns or coronet band.
Wavy hair growth or hair loss is visible in the pastern area.
The horse's pasterns have darker hair than the rest of the horse's coat.
The horse carries its hocks low and may twist them outward when moving.
The horse lies down for extended periods of time, and is resistant to standing up.
The horse resists handling of its hooves.
The horse has difficulty walking, and may fall.
Other methods of soring include pressure shoes, where the hoof is trimmed to the quick so that the sole is in direct contact with the pad or shoe. The horse may then be "road foundered," ridden up and down hard surfaces on the over-trimmed hooves, until they are very sore. Trainers sometimes place objects, such as metal beads, nails, or screws, under the pad causing intense pressure, although this practice has begun to decrease with the use of fluoroscopy to detect such methods. Abusive use of chains (such as using them with chemical soring agents) is also a common practices by sorers.
Measures have been taken to stop the practice, and many supporters of the Tennessee Walking Horse have banded together for years to oppose cruelty. The Horse Protection Act of 1970[3], created specifically to stop such practices and to monitor the TWH in particular, prohibits the use of soring agents. The Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS), part of the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), is working with the industry to enforce the law. Tennessee Walking Horse organizations send DQPs (Designated Qualified Persons) to shows to inspect the horses, and, as funding permits, APHIS sends federally-employed Veterinary Medical Officers to work with DQPs at some shows.
Soring has been prohibited at sales and shows for decades, but is still practiced.[4] It can be detected by observing the horse for lameness, assessing its stance and palpating the lower legs. Some trainers can bypass inspectors by training horses not to react to the pain that palpation may cause, often by severely punishing the horse for flinching after the sored area is palpated. The practice is sometimes called "stewarding," in reference to the horse show steward who often is the first line of rule enforcement at any horse show. Trainers may also time the use of the agents so that chemicals will not be detected when the horse is examined, but will be in effect when the rider goes into the ring. Others use topical anesthetics, which are timed to wear off before the horse goes into the show ring. Pressure shoeing is also used, eliminating use of chemicals altogether. Trainers who sore their horses will leave the show grounds when they find that the more stringent federal inspectors are present.[4]
In 2006, however, due to new techniques in both soring and detection, the USDA began a larger crackdown on soring within the industry. A new device known as a "sniffer" (also used to detect the chemical presence of bombs in airport security) can now be employed, where swabbed samples are taken from the horse and then "sniffed." At the 2006 Tennessee Walking Horse Celebration [5], the longstanding dispute between trainers and USDA inspectors came to a head. The inspectors disqualified 6 of 10 horses from showing on the night of Friday, August 25, 2006. The trainers denied soring and challenged the monitoring methods. The result was that a number of celebration championship classes were canceled, and there is still considerable controversy over the situation. After a yearlong discussion between the industry and the USDA over the issues raised at the 2006 show, the 2007 championship went off without significant controversy.
Trainers who oppose soring have formed and joined alternative breed organizations, including the National Walking Horse Association (NWHA) and Friends of Sound Horses (FOSH). All of these organizations promote the sound Tennessee Walking Horse. In addition, in 2005, the national directors of the Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders' and Exhibitors' Association (TWHBEA) voted to remove themselves from the National Horse Show Commission (NHSC) the sanctioning body closest to the soring issues. The TWHBEA formed its own sanctioning body, developed a new rule book and strict guidelines for affiliated horse shows and Horse Industry Organizations [HIO] that applied and were examined by the APHIS. The issue remains very controversial, particularly in the states of Kentucky and Tennessee.
An investigation by ABC News into the training methods of Tennessee Walking Horses revealed that large numbers of horses have been tortured and beaten in order to make them produce their signature high-stepping gait. In a video shot by the Humane Society of the United States, high profile trainer Jackie McConnel is seen beating horses, using electric cattle prods and soring their hooves with caustic chemicals. Additionally, a random inspection by the Department of Agriculture at the 2011 annual championship found that 52 out of 52 horses had a foreign substance applied to their front hooves, either to cause pain or hide it.[6] In June, 2012, the American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Veterinary Medical Association jointly issued a call to ban both action devices (chains, rollers, etc.) and "performance packages," e.g. stacks or pads.[7]

źródło": wikipedia.
Jak znajdę chwilę czasu przetłumaczę to na ludzki polski

To czekamy na tłumacz Google cioci Nev.

-Eruina- napisał:

mina stirit1 napisał:

0:17 i nie wytrzymałam... Okropieństwo!

Co jest w tym 0.17, bo ja jestem ślepa i nic nie widzę? ^^

TikTaku - facet wali tego biednego konia kijem z całej siły w głowę

Po prostu iść, wziąć ten kij i zatłuc, jak można być tak chorym człowiekiem i nie zdawać sobie sprawy z tego że koń ma uczucia...

Żeby go tak walnąć tym kijem przes łeb, to by miał -.-

Wie ktoś co może oznaczać to "lite shod" z pierwszego tekstu? Bo wychodzą mi ułamki.

A może little? little shod - mały okuty?

"Shod" oznacza "podkuty".
A "lite" wychodzi mi w tłumaczu, że niskokaloryczny. o.o A we wszystkich innych nawet nie ma takiego słowa. Może rzeczywiście jest to "little", tylko ktoś się pomylił. Czyli wychodzi, że słabo podkuty...?

Jak widać ludzki id*****m nie zna granic.. Może weźmiemy wskoczymy na takiego faceta w tym czymś i walniemy go batem z łeb?

Pysia - na kiedy planujemy akcję? Bo jestem za. Albo lepiej! Kijem baseballowym go!

Siekierką?

Eee..tam. Wolę piłę mechaniczną.Przy okazji nakręcimy nowy odcinek Teksańskiej Masakry Piłą Mechaniczną i zbijemy na tym fortunę

Co tam piła. Armia bałwanów z dyniami zamiast głów złotymi mieczami,i my z diamentowymi!
Należy się za okrucieństwo. D;

No właśnie nie "little"
Cała fraza "Lite shod" jest w wielu różnych tekstach.
Z tego co się dokopałam to jest to po prostu nieco inne podkucie konia, gdzie podkowa jest ciężka (nierzadko waży kilka kg) i zakrywa niemal cały spód kopyta.


OK, kawałkiem będę tłumaczyć:

Cytat :

Historia "Big Lick"
Na przełomie 1840 i 1950r, gdy konie Tennesee zyskiwały wielką popularność wśród publiczności, przesadna akcja przednich nóg szczególnie widoczna w tzw "running walk" przyciągnęła uwagę widzów i pomogła zwiększyć popularność tej rasy. Została ona także doceniona przez sędziów. Jednocześnie powstał ruch przeciwny "Big Lick". Aby ciężko podkute konie z naturalnie dobrym ruchem mogły wykonać ten przyciągający uwagę publiczności element potrzeba było zarówno zdolności samego konia jak i odpowiedniego treningu i kondycji zwierzęcia.
Niektóre osoby, chcące uzyskać podobny ruch u mniej utalentowanych koni lub też w krótszym czasie zapożyczyły praktyki stosowane u innych ras w celu osiągnięcia bardziej efektownego chodu. Obejmuje to takie przedmioty i działania jak obciążone podkowy, podkładki, obwiązywanie łańcuchami pęcin, które w określonych granicach są dozwolone.
Ponieważ te metody pozwalały uzyskać konie wygrywające na ringu, jak też coraz wyraźniejsza i bardziej dramatyczna akcja nóg była bardziej doceniana przez sędziów, niektórzy trenerzy zaczęli używać metod mniej przyjemnych by jak najszybciej osiągnąć ten efekt. Te metody obejmowały używanie ciężkich łańcuchów, gwoździ (?) wbijanych bezpośrednio w linię białą, bądź przycinanie kopyt do tego stopnia, że krwawiło lub było wręcz zmiażdżone, zwiększenie wagi podkładek przez wbicie w nie wielu ukrytych gwoździ oraz zastosowanie kontrowersyjnej praktyki tzw "soring", czyli używanie środków kaustycznych na pęcinach nóg przednich by wywołać ból gdy łańcuch uderza o nią co krok. Efektem tych praktyk jest to, ze koń wysoko unosi nogi by złagodzić ból. Jednocześnie koń podstawia tylne kończyny by odciążyć przednie. Powoduje to wręcz "kuczną" pozycję ciała (zad ekstremalnie obniżony, przednie nogi podnoszone bardzo wysoko), typową dla konia "Big Lick". Takie nadużycia są niedozwolone w myśl Horse Protection Act, niemniej nadal są używane.

Co to ma być? Elektrycznym biczem takiego, kto wymyślił taką podkowę!

Po co faceta walić w łep? Najlepiej mu łep uciąć

Nie, lepiej otruć i nóż mu wsadzić w nadgarstek! Umrze w mękach, dobrze, należy się mu.

Nieee....dziewczyny.To jest za lekko.
Najlepiej go wsadzić na krzeslo które kopie prądem, dawać male dawki prądu i czekać jak zdechnie w męczarniach

To jest pomysł. Kiedy się umawiamy na jego egzekucję? ^Im devill^